Talk:Culture of Birmingham

Jools Holland and Jam House

Let's go to source. Go to the site of Luminar plc, and search for "Jools". A quick skim finds that "in April 2000 we acquired the Jam House, a branded going concern concept, in conjunction with Jools Holland based in Birmingham", and that he's "on board as the venue’s musical and creative advisor" (which isn't a managerial post - the guy has a career). So he's probably a co-owner, but certainly doesn't "run" it in the general admin sense. RayGirvan 21:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Luminar's annual reports for the past few years have stated that Jools Holland was granted an option on 50,000 shares at £8.77 "to strengthen the company's relationship with [him]". The option is contingent upon him remaining involved with the Jam House until 2006. He may be a co-owner but we cannot conclude that from this. I think it most likely that he is being offered contingent remuneration for consultancy. I would guess that he was an owner of the Jam House before its acquisition by Luminar. I cannot confirm this without recourse to Companies House records. Perhaps someone with a subscription could check. --Theo (Talk) 22:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reasonable conclusion. The FT November 2, 2000 describes the acquisition (no earlier details) saying the Jam House "is fronted" by Jools Holland. Birmingham Post, October 11, 2000: "Jam House, which has the considerable cachet of Jools Holland as one of its backing names". Basically we're talking a token role for them to have a prestigious name to wave. RayGirvan 23:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I saw Jools recently live, quite superb, I have also visited the Jam House Nick Boulevard 23:26, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Biographies

See Literary connections with Birmingham for many more examples of Birmingham and related authors. RayGirvan 22:56, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is why I find wikipedia interesting. Nick Boulevard 23:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Birdland

Birdland were actually from Kingsbury, south of Tamworth. Their record label was in Coventry. Still not Brummies, either way. --Brumburger 21:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Musical comparisons

Before we get into an argument over the inclusion of comparisons to other cities, can we please discuss the phrasing here? The fundamental question seems to be: is it necessary to compare the musical contribution of Birmingham to that of other cities?

In my opinion, the comparison is not essential but it does enhance the reader's understanding of the city's place in England's musical landscape. I propose: :Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been a "Birmingham sound" comparable to Merseybeat or Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}.
—Theo (Talk) 08:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My intention in including the references to Liverpool and Manchester was to show that despite the fact that Birmingham's music scene isn't celebrated, it in fact matches up to (even surpasses) either of those cities. It's not the first place that would spring to mind if you were asked about a provincial city with a music scene, and that's partly because a lot of the music is (or was) not trendy - it doesn't get the critical kudos. Heavy Metal is hugely popular, friends who work in music retail tell me it's the only genre where sales are consistently increasing, but it's generally seen as a bit naff, music for spotty teenagers. ELO were one of the biggest bands of the seventies, but completely out of favour these days. The same could be said for Duran Duran in the eighties - huge success then, and still a lot of fans now, but you won't find many modern bands claiming them as an influence, they are seen as a slightly embarrassing relic. But when you look at Liverpool and Manchester closely, they don't have anything like the long-term success of Birmingham. I'd be happy with Theo's rewording. --Brumburger 09:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"My intention in including the references to Liverpool and Manchester was to show that despite the fact that Birmingham's music scene isn't celebrated" ~ who doesn't celebrate it?, the people of the city have supported local bands fervently and the Brum Beat scene although not as obvious to the media as other cities was quite extensive and some great musicians hailed from there, this is why I tried to include such trivia as Jimmy Hendrix recording All along the watchtower because of (and with a) Birmingham musician, one of the most influential rock recordings ever?

Birmingham bands have been very "trendy" whatever that means, Durran Durran whether you like it or not have been a big influence in recent club culture from the chronic hairstyles to the extravagant clothes style, I have heard many new bands such as the editors (another Brum band in current favour with radio 6) who play a similar style recently, to suggest that Duran Duran are a "slightly embarrassing relic" is a bit unfair and your opinion not mine, I think that seeing as you were happy to point out that you are a professional journo Ray It is fair now that I should point out that I am a professional musician. Dexys, The Beat, Traffic even early UB40 were all underground (better than trendy) individual acts and are still played on "trendy" stations today such as Radio 6. Manchester had a brilliant spell in the late eighties mainly down to the success of the Hacienda and its wide music policy, similar to the Rum Runner but on a much bigger but less stuck up scale.

Liverpool and Manchester are definately bigger in the medias eyes especially papers such as the New Musical Express who have had a dislike of anything Birmingham for some time, why should we pander to their misconceptions, Wikipedia is honest and as I keep getting told... unbiased, so we need to know the facts and not someone elses view which is always going to be challenged. Nick Boulevard 18:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I meant "celebrated" exactly in the sense of what you're saying in that last paragraph - being "bigger in the media", having a reputation. It's nothing to do with particular bands, it's to do with the city as a whole having a reputation as a centre for music. All the Liverpool post-punk groups of the early eighties traded on that city's reputation, as did Frankie Goes to Hollywood, and the Zutons do today. A lot of those groups were mediocre, but they got a bit of a boost from the association with the Beatles. Birmingham (as the article makes clear) has a great musical history but it doesn't have the same cachet. --Brumburger 19:08, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the media is it? Wikipedia is based on fact, when I initially wrote that article and researched all the brum bands I included a statement at the beginning which read something like.. "Birmingham has contributed massively to the British music scene for over half a century" but someone on this page deleted it, later someone else re-worded it to this (which I prefered and is not too OTT), http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Birmingham&oldid=11558397#Popular_music. Nick Boulevard 17:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. "Iconic" is another word that sprang to mind. Merseyside is, primarily through originating the Beatles: Birmingham isn't, despite its solid track record. RayGirvan 10:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How can you suggest that Black Sabbath are not iconic? Nick Boulevard 18:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We were talking about the musical reputation of regions as a whole. RayGirvan 19:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ray, according to Google hits (Andy Mabbetts prefered method of establishing how important something is) Black Sabbath figure quite highly in musical reputation and seem to be quite iconic, so do Duran Duran etc. If we are talking about musical reputation of a region as a whole then we could add Nick Drake to brum (west mids) list who grew up a few miles south of Brum or the Specials from Coventry, we do not need to mention the word iconic or Liverpool or Manchester or any other missleading comment other than Brum has produced some really talented musicians, their scene is an ongoing one that relies on a proud heritage, the view that Manchester or Liverpool's music scene is more famous than that of Brum is a contentious issue and one that could be argued till the cows don't pup on the fields. Lets drop this and concentrate on the article... Popular music in Birmingham. Nick Boulevard 22:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Revised version adopting Ray's lovely word:

Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been an iconic "Birmingham sound" comparable to Merseybeat or Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}.

—Theo (Talk) 13:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theo, the Brum Beat in the 60's was brums own sound mate, look here please. http://www.brumbeat.net/ thanks. Nick Boulevard 18:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning but - see this NME reprint - it does appear to have been a branding construct rather than a unified style like, say, Merseybeat. RayGirvan 18:57, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And who do you propose branded the merseybeat, could it have been press releases from a record label, can you verify this please. Nick Boulevard 22:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Google finds "about 995" for 'Brumbeat', "about 247,000" for 'Merseybeat'. Andy Mabbett 19:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are we now to base wikipedia inclusion on google hits, thats a bit naive isn't it? Nick Boulevard 22:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[resetting indents] The site that Nick cites says Norrie Paramore apparently came up with "Brum Beat" as part of an advertising campaign to promote national interest in the bands he had signed up from Birmingham, but the term Brum Beat would later become known more for the geographical location that certain groups and performers came from, rather than for a single unifying "sound". As Ray says, it is worth mentioning but I do not see how to do so without diminishing the "birthplace of heavy metal". How about:

Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been an iconic "Birmingham sound" comparable to Merseybeat or Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}. Norrie Paramore of EMI promoted his West Midlands bands under a "Brum Beat" slogan in the 1960s but this did not represent a single sound{{Inote|Woodhouse, <http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm>|WoodhouseOview}} and was one of many attempts to exploit the Merseybeat phenomenon.

The associated reference is: [http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm Woodhouse, John R. 'Welcome to Brum Beat', ''Brum Beat'' (2005)]. Retrieved [[June 20]] [[2005]]. —Theo (Talk) 20:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to be pedantic here but what about the amount of Reggae artists and bands that have evolved out of a Brum reggae scene, amount to more than Manchester and Liverpool combined but have arguably been overlooked by the press because Birmingham isn't "trendy", shall we mention this also ie: Birmingham has a great history of reggae musicians, more so than Liverpool and Manchester combined do you get my point? Why use a comparison when it is not needed, I would argue that Brum has contributed to the Madchester scene with the Charlatans who are always refered to as a Manchester band, I think that if we were to keep the reference to Liverpool and Manchester it needs to be explained further Nick Boulevard 22:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That is also interesting. Can we say that more reggae artists come from Brum than any other English city except London? I would need a source but I think that this would be sufficiently significant to merit a mention. The origin of the Charlatans is something for the body of the section. The thrust of this opening paragraph is to communicate the things for which Brum is famous. Overlooked or neglected achievements could form a second paragraph—perhaps that is where we should mention reggae and the Charlatans. If we all accept the form of paragraph one, we can put that in the article and move on to paragraph two.—Theo (Talk) 07:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theo, the thing is that this initial title has been changed about so much since I first bulked up the popular music section some months ago, please read my last response to Brum Burger above, this intro stayed for ages and it doesn't suggest anything other than the absolute truth, it is neither OTT Brum biased nor is it highlighting any "poor old overlooked brum" type of wording, the initial sentence to the article IMO should be short and to the point, we can asume that the reader may have never thought of comparing Birminghams music to that of Liverpool, London or Manchester, this is an encyclopedia and bare facts should remain otherwise I would like the Jimmy Hendrix stuff back again, this is why I added them in the first place so as to try and shout about the music scene and it's influence, you rightly pointed this out to be trivia and irelivant to the article, I now agree but I disagree that we should have reference to other cities on the page, the reader can see for themselves just how much or little the city has contributed to Brit music from the bands and musicians, they only need to click to Manchester or Liverpool to see what those cities offer, am I to go to Liverpool and Manchester and add a comment at the start of their music section... "Although the Afro-Caribbean music scene is not as diverse or successful as Birmingham... etc.." how long do you reckon it would remain and believe me there are plenty of examples of bias on those pages. I suggest not comparing to anywhere, just something like what was there before, "Over the years Birmingham has been a centre of inovation for many different types of music." Black Sabbath are more successful/famous heavy metal band than anything in Liverpool or Manchester, UB40 are a more successful/famous reggae band than anything in Liverpool or Manchester, The beat are a more successful/famous ska/2-tone band than anything in Liverpool and Manchester, Traffic were a more successful/famous psychadelic band than anything in Manchester, Duran Duran are a more successful/famous new romantic band than anything in Liverpool or Manchester, I realise that this is what the sentence was trying to suggest, IMO it reads as though it is trying to cement the media misconception that Brum music has not been as famous as the cities mentioned when in fact it has, I really think this should be dropped, If I object you can guarantee others will and personally I would like there to be some kind of sustenance to what we decide here. Thanks Nick Boulevard 17:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In which case, how about:

Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been an iconic "Birmingham sound" but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}, and was home to bands of international reknown. Norrie Paramore of EMI promoted his West Midlands bands under a "Brum Beat" slogan in the 1960s but this did not represent a single sound{{Inote|Woodhouse, <http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm>|WoodhouseOview}} and was one of many attempts to exploit the Merseybeat phenomenon. —Theo (Talk) 23:00, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Further proposal: treat this as another example of Nick's distorted agenda and obstruction of rational edits about Birmingham. I'm adding it to the RfC as an example of how he hasn't changed.RayGirvan 23:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ray, what on earth are you talking about? This is getting a bit pathetic, it really is I was about to post a reply to Theo as we are trying to reach a compromise about this page that could be welcomed by all and the contribution you offer is to stirr up trouble, Ray... you really do not like poeple argueing against you I have not touched the page and I won't until the discussion is finished, I have just as much a right to what "intro" sits on this page as you or anyone else here, that is exactly what we were discussing untill you... grrrr Nick Boulevard 23:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whats even more annoying is that I have now lost my last reply to Theo which gave an alternative option part wording his last version.... I just can't be bothered now, do what you want. Nick Boulevard 23:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't care if it incites your gormless rage. This discussion is entirely about long-standing issues. It riles you that Birmingham isn't as iconic as somewhere else, so we get the usual w*nk along the lines of Birmingham music being iconic because your sister's aunt knew someone whose cat was vaccinated by a vet who liked Slade. RayGirvan 00:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

gormless rage... usual w*nk... ~ slowly, slowly... ;) Nick Boulevard 00:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[Resetting indents]Ray: Your proposal is not helpful. Nick: I would still like to see your proposed rewrite.—Theo (Talk) 08:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi Theo, don't worry I won't take Rays comment personally, It actually takes quite a lot to get me into a "gormless rage" :) infact just for the record I was chilling out with a Beer whilst listening to The Doors last night, lovely eveing as well.

Ok I have just come in from work and I will try and remember what was lost in the cross edit, I will post later. Thanks. Nick Boulevard 17:05, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)